Friday, February 4, 2011

Mark Watches ‘Doctor Who’: S03E07 – 42

Over on 'Mark Watches' the review for '42' is up.

Spoilers below.


Anonymous said...

OMG I'm staying here just for the fish. Also, I have not yet re-watched 42.. so.. I can't spoil..

Anonymous said...

Mark just said in a jokey "why I would be a bad doctor" thread: I would also use the TARDIS like public transportation. NEXT STOP: MARS.

He has no idea. :O

E.L.S.O.S. said...

I know what you mean. I am so obsessed with them. Try clicking in the box. It feeds them! I can spend hours force feeding these fishies.

Anonymous said...

Hmmm- so Mark worked out that Donna's coming back. I suppose it isn't surprising, considering how many GIFs we used and the undying love we expressed about her...but there goes at least one major spoiler down the drain. :(

On the bright side- Human Nature's up next. Oh, God, one of my favourite stories ever!

Kaleidoscoptics said...

I am really interested to see how he reacts to Human Nature/Family of Blood. It's a two parter I want to like, but it's the episode that really made me hate how the Doctor treats Martha. It annoying already, but that was the point where I just wanted to slap the Doctor.

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry but I just can not WAIT until Mark sees the Angels.. AND THEN SEES THEM COME BACK. SERIOUSLY. I saw the angel return episodes (i FORGET THEIR NAMES) way before my Dr. Who obsessed friend had, River Song says something like.. "What do you know about angels?" DUN DUN DUN. Also.. Mark is GONNA LOVE RIVER.

Anonymous said...


E.L.S.O.S. said...

Oh god, River! Best character ever!

True facts: I *hated* River for the longest time. Then, during the second angel arc when she came back I was watching it with my roommate Kate and we both couldn't understand where the badass wonder River came from. We re-watched the Silence in the Library and Forest of the Dead episodes and came to the conclusion that we didn't hate River, we hated her ending. I mean, trapped within a virtual reality world for all eternity? That's a happy ending? I think I would rather just be dead!

Tauriel said...

I think River got a lovely ending - it's virtually a heaven, she's with all the people she liked and cared about. What's not to love? :)

And I can't WAIT for Mark's reaction to "Blink"! A liveblog is a genius idea.

Nadia said...

River's end just confused the hell out of me. I wasn't really clear WHAT had been saved, exactly, I'd assumed it must be an echo of herself and not the real thing, because if you could actually save her, why wouldn't you restore her properly like everybody else in the library? Living forever in a world that isn't real and you'll never really be concious of the fact is pretty depressing.
I actually watched season 5 before I went back and watched the rest of the show, I don't think I would have been as into her as a character if that was how we'd been introduced.

Also, why I originally came here: What were people saying about there being hints about season 3's arc in the first episodes, because I didn't remember any from the first 2.

Anonymous said...

I think I must be in the minority of mega!fans that doesn't think Blink is really all that awesome. On first viewing it was cool, but on rewatch (when you know the punchline) there's really not all that much special about it IMO. So I can't really share in the excitement for it ... all you have is the wibbly-wobbly punchline. There's no character development, it doesn't tie into anything else in the season - there's really nothing to hold my interest at all on rewatch.

E.L.S.O.S. said...

The hints to the grand finale in season three actually start with 'Love and Monsters' in season 2. Here's the wiki talking about the clues.

Anonymous said...

Can we get support for IntenseDebate accounts on this?

I cannot find non-spoilery River gifs, woe. And I can't remember if her sonic screwdriver is in the first or second part, so that might make a lot of the promo pics spoilery too.

I am collecting a lot of Alex Kingston pics to fall back on, though.

Regarding Blink, I want to post a gif of the Angels, but I feel bad given what we find out when they retur - the whole "an image of an angel..." thing.

nanceoir said...

re: River Song's ending (or "ending") -- I've been rewatching Torchwood S1 to help keep me from overtaking Mark in Doctor Who, but since Torchwood and Doctor Who exist in the same universe, then it's been established that life is all there is. There's no white light or afterlife or anything. Death is the end, a vast black nothing. So, with that in mind, saving River's consciousness (or whatever) to a hard drive to exist in that virtual reality world is a way to keep her alive; and since she's got company (her coworkers who she seemed to like, and those two kids), it's like the best gift the Doctor could give her.

That said, I do think the 'being unawares it's a virtual world' thing was a by-product of the system saving people; I think River and company, however, are well aware of exactly where they are. Plus, Miss Evangelista's there to fill in all the details.

Anonymous said...

Am I the only person who is really suspicious of River Song? I mean, I like her, she's a badass, but I totally do not trust her. It's a combination of the fact that she not only killed a man she killed "a good man. The best man I ever knew" and that when she sees the Doctor at the end of the Series Five finale, she tells him that soon he'll find out who she is, and then "I'm sorry, but everything will change." Maybe it's not bad. I hope not. But I have, to quote another sci-fi franchise, a bad feeling about this.

(it's Hypatia, btw, I don't have a Wordpress or LiveJournal account, so I'm using my AIM account under a different user name).

Nadia said...

Thanks, E.L.S.O.S!

And well, River's a great big mystery at this point, I had assumed there's got to be more to her than meets our eye but as a character I really, really like her. My biggest worry is that the big reveal about her is going to be totally underwhelming compared to the hype season 5 built up around her.

Anonymous said...

Oh Hypatia.. I have no doubt that River Song is responsible for the death of the Doctor. *Chuckles*

Anonymous said...

Yep, that's my theory. (I now have a Livejournal account :-) )

Tauriel said...

I think the whole "River kills Doctor" is way too obvious. I think Moffat is intentionally misleading us into thinking that River kills Doctor (because all the hints blatantly point to that), but he's proven that his plot twists are never simple. There's something more to it, for sure. Same thing goes for the supposed marriage between the Doctor and River - like River said, a simple marriage would be just too simple.

As for who River Song really is... well, there've been all sorts of theories that she's adult Amy, future daughter of Amy and Rory, regenerated Jenny (the Doctor's daughter), regenerated Susan, regenerated Romana, regenerated Rani... :P

E.L.S.O.S. said...

There was this great conspiracy theory that I read a while ago that said that River was half-Time Lord. The Master, who seems to have no qualms about sleeping with humans, is her father which accounts for River's increased intelligence. The conspiracy went that in the future the Master pulls another Saxon-ish stunt and becomes publicly beloved by all. However, the Doctor finds out, comes to stop him, and the fiasco ends up with River killing the Master.

There was a ton more to it, but I can't find where it was posted. 'The best man I ever knew' bit was her coping with her father's death (assuming she had a happy childhood with him). Her strange ability to remember the Doctor even when Amy had forgotten him so she could go Amy's wedding and trigger the memories of the Tardis with her book.

I dunno. It seems like it could be a stretch, but I liked the theory.

E.L.S.O.S. said...

Oh, P.S.

I have no idea how to get IntenseDebate accounts to work on this. If anyone knows, tell me and I'll add that feature.

Anonymous said...

I don't think River could be a Time Lady, because the Doctor would have known right off. Time Lords have some sort of low-level psychic link that allows them to recognize each other. Half Time Lord could make sense though. Let's just hope to god she's not the Rani, the last thing the Doctor needs is another insane evil genius Time Lord back from the dead.

I agree that having be a) the Doctor's wife or b) his killer or c) both is just too obvious since they've been hinting at both left and right all through Series 5. No doubt things are Not As They Seem.

hassibah said...

I dunno how it works, but this seems like the place to go:

And oh man, I have been waiting for more Timelords to show up, weird that that didn't occur to me. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if that was the case and they made up a BS loophole to explain it-or another device like the watch to disguise them, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Anonymous said...

Oh, well of course it's going to be more complex. Maybe she didn't pull the trigger.. and didn't do it out of hate.. but I think she's responsible for his death.

And who seriously went WHAT. When the DALEK begged mercy from her? CAUSE THAT WAS LIKE "EXCUSE ME. I'M RIVER SONG, BITCH."

Love her.

Anonymous said...

Mark believing that Martha could have possibly died in this episode has actually made me look forward to The Stolen Earth now. He knows Matt Smith takes over at some point so, assuming nobody spoils him between then and now, it's quite possible that he'll think that's when it happens.

(may be babbling slightly)

Anonymous said...

"And who seriously went WHAT. When the DALEK begged mercy from her? CAUSE THAT WAS LIKE "EXCUSE ME. I'M RIVER SONG, BITCH.""

Oh yeah. The Doctor scares the Daleks, but River Song MAKES THEM BEG FOR MERCY. That's a whole new level of badass. Who the FUCK is this woman?

And when we say "death", do we mean she killed Eleven, or she killed the Doctor permanently? I don't think the latter is true, because she mentions right before her Heroic Sacrifice in Forest of the Dead that she'd seen the Doctor not long before. Hmmm.

Anonymous said...

I want to put that on a macro when we get to that part for Mark.

"The Doctor scares the Daleks, but River Song MAKES THEM BEG FOR MERCY. That's a whole new level of badass. Who the FUCK is this woman? "


I honestly think she kills him permanently. But I'm not expecting to be right. And if I am?
I have a wonderful "I CALLED IT." gif.

Anonymous said...

Thankyouverymuch, I shall look forward to seeing this macro :-).

How do you figure she kills him permanently? Do you think they'll retcon her seeing him shortly before she dies or do you think she was lying about that?

Personally, I really doubt that they'll permanently off the Doctor, even when the series ends, whenever that may be. I'd be really surprised to see them kill off a character that iconic.

Anonymous said...

Not a damn clue. As I said earlier, I don't think River necessarily has to pull the gun.. but rather is responsible somehow. I don't think they'll retcon her seeing him, but I do think that they will take full advantage of time and lord and time lord stuff.

I'm probably leaning towards this way because I like to see series, novels and TV shows alike, come to a solid end. I don't like things being left with any sort of possible continuation or room for fan-continuation. It's just not my thing. The Chronicles of Narnia were fantastic for me because Narnia 'died' and they 'died' and that offered me enough of a ending. My favorite books Crown and Court Duel? Don't give a solid ending to the characters.. so I'm always like 'WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?!?!"

Anonymous said...

Funny, I'm exactly the opposite! I prefer to leave characters alive so I can imagine they're still existing somewhere (because I get too attached to fictional characters generally). I loved the ending of Angel and Buffy, for instance, because they were both left wide open (I've never read any of the Season 8 comics and probably won't, so to me, all those characters are out there somewhere in FictionLand doing stuff :-)).

Mostly, I'm just suspicious of how heavily they're hinting at both River killing the Doctor and a romantic relationship between the two of them. I don't trust Moffat to actually build on those hints rather that just turning everything upside down and doing something no one expects.

Definitely looking forward to finding out though!

Anonymous said...

River Song! I can't wait to find out her story. :D

I'm watching the S3 finale with my dad and he is flipping out at the DobbyJesusDoctor ending. I can't wait until Mark gets there.

E.L.S.O.S. said...

The weirdest thing about River and the Doctor? She could actually kill him off, the end, no more Doctor ever... And then go out to dinner with him the next day. Since they keep meeting out of order she could have killed Thirteen, but then Twelve or Eleven or an earlier version of Thirteen could have cut his hair and showed up at her doorstep to say goodbye as she was headed towards the Library. It's bizarre. There is literally nothing stopping her from killing off the Doctor then finding him for a quick snog later that day.

Tauriel said...

Series 3 finale is... well... Utopia is AWESOME. It really feels like a Classic Who story (and I love the return of Jack and his interactions with the Doctor and Martha). My two main problems with The Sound of Drums and The Last of the Time Lords are: 1. the OTT campness of the Master (I mean... Dancing to Scissor Sisters??? WTF???) and 2. the Dobby/Tinkerbell/Jesus Doctor. Again, WTF??? On the other hand the whole series arc (that the Master went back 18 months and was essentially pulling strings throughout the series) is GENIUS. And Martha walking the Earth to talk to people about the Doctor is both heartbreaking and totally badass (it places her MILES above Rose Tyler). But the "reset button" ending was a terrible cop-out.

Sarah (the ArrogantSage) said...

"I disagree with you a bit there, because I think series 3 is MEANT to draw out the Rose parallels."

Nice, a place where I can expand on my thoughts to this comment.
I can see why a lot of people believe they are meant to draw parallels between Rose and Martha at every turn, but that begs the question, "Why?". What does that accomplish ultimately in the series? The Doctor has always had to move on and we are always going to need to get used to a new companion or even a new Doctor.

I don't begrudge his overwhelming feelings of loss. I don't even mind that they reference Rose, but I don't think that moment of "Believe in me" was in any way a reference back to Rose.

My problem with comparing all these things to Rose is that there is no payoff in that route. She doesn't come back (at least not in any permanent way). We look deeply at all these scenes and dig deep to find the parallels to when it was Rose and then...big fat nothing. We already know he is devastated by losing her.

"I really love Martha, and I do think she sometimes gets the shit end of the stick, but episodes like this are there to stress the differences between her and Rose."

Why? Why do the differences between Rose and Martha need to be stressed? It's obvious from the outset that they are two different girls...and yet a lot alike. The Doctor likes people with certain qualities and both women have them (bravery, strength, compassion, etc.)
But, I know I am repeating myself, what does it accomplish to take Rose away and yet constantly bombard us with veiled references to her when we aren't going to get her back?

So, in summary (lol), I am not debating the obvious references to Rose. I am not debating the heart-brokenness of the Doctor. I'm just saying that everything that CAN parallel Rose isn't necessarily a reference to her. Of course, I could be wrong as I have never read/watched commentary from the writers to know if they are deliberately doing it every chance they get. I do know that personally, it would lessen my enjoyment of the episodes since they plan on marooning her on Bad Wolf Bay and they change the Doctor in 5 anyway (who of course, doesn't reference Rose at all...unless I missed it).

flamingpie said...

I don't have any proof that it was purposeful, I just tend to think it was. When it came to the Doctor and Rose, Rusty was always very purposeful about everything that went into the story. They were his epic love story, and he put a LOT of detail into thinking it out. (thus the lack of Rose references in series 5. They were absolutely NOT Moffat's couple. Although incidentally, Rose is the only companion besides Amy to show up in Eleven's little psychic headbutt with Craig in The Lodger. Probably a coincidence, or a sneaky insert by an editor who happened to be a shipper, but I get a kick out of it. XD). a good example of his thought process would be this quote about the writing of series two:

"But I always knew I’d have to split up the Doctor and Rose — they were devoted to each other, there’s no way she’d go and marry King of the Zobulans, or stay at home with mum. So that huge, huge plot of parallel universes — Daleks one side, Cybermen the other, Earth in the middle and all that — only existed to put two characters on either side of a wall. You sort of work backwards, really."

I don't KNOW that things like the parallels in series three are references to Rose, but because we have a fairly good idea of how Rusty thinks, I tend to believe they are. It makes sense because by comparing the two of them, the audience is experiencing much the same thing that the Doctor is. Coming to terms with the similarities and differences between this new companion and the one we lost.

Sarah (the ArrogantSage) said...

Truth be told, I can't fault a person for feeling this way. I just know that in reading reviews for Season 3, it's somewhat maddening for every thing to come back to being about Rose. I love Rose as a character, I love her family, but I am okay with the changing of the guard. I am okay with Martha's stuff being about Martha. It's like she's already getting diminished by the stupid crush they imposed on her character, but then to have a really cool moment like her "believe in me" be a hearkening back to Rose just annoys me.
It's such a great moment on it's own without the comparison. He proves that he trusts her, but then someone has to come in and say "Well, on the Rose episode, he said it like this...poor Martha, being second best".

I will admit to a bias here and it's not what you think. I don't ship Martha/Doctor (Mickey/Martha is just too delicious), but I was involved in the HP shipping debates. And they left a distaste for shipper goggles. Seeing these veiled references at every turn, especially where there's no real in story pay-off (for example, when the Doctor is angsting about Rose, his reactions fuel something for us to see. Seeing the Impossible Planet as some kind of Rose reference doesn't do anything for us because the Doctor isn't actively making the reference or reacting to the possibility..god, I hope that makes sense), is very much a thing hard-core shippers do to continually validate their ship. All else must be lesser, because it could hurt their case. But that simply isn't true.
The Doctor doesn't have to get over Rose to care for Martha. He can mourn her and like Martha at the same time. One doesn't take away from the other. Hell, they could have gone the route of having him confide in her. But the distancing also makes sense.
Anyway, I hope my tone isn't combatative. This is the first Doctor Who board I have ever been on. It's probably all been talked to death.

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